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DoubleA

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Druid questions
« am: 02. Januar 2016, 00:29:23 »

Well, as it appears that we've migrated over here (kind of), I thought that I'd post a few questions.  I played 3.5 back when but finally get the chance to play in the 4.0 rules!

Regarding Druids, and the Beast's Strength talent, the English version has it as Druid 10 (V) but the description doesn't say "per rank."  I'm reading it as it *should* say that - thus giving a +10 to combat values if maxed.  The German version *does* appear to say "per rank" (Kraft der Bestie: Pro Talentrang) which would make sense.  Can anyone confirm?

Also, regarding the phrase "all combat values" I'm taking this to mean all the derived values as listed at the beginning of the book (HP, DEF, INIT, MOV, MAT, RAT, SPC, TSC) meaning that some of those values are going to get fairly high.  Can anyone confirm?

Also, regarding the different forms, all say "all gear is included in the transformation and any magical bonus will continue to take effect."  Does this mean that any bonus to magical AV or magical weapon bonus will carryover?  It reads like it does.  For example, I'm carrying a +1 quarterstaff and wearing +2 robes.  When I change to wolf, my MAT and DEF changes to that of a wolf but I still get the magical +1 bonus to attack and magical +2 to DEF.  Can anyone confirm?

More questions as time warrants.  Kind of hoping that CK or Dargndorp are still around.
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« Antwort #1 am: 02. Januar 2016, 05:35:06 »

Regarding Animal Form (versus Bear Form and Eagle Form), there is specific mention that "He does not gain any special attacks such as snake venom."  Does this extend to *all* special attacks and abilities?  A possible shapeshift example is that of a wolf.  The wolf has a special abilities Charge, Natural Weapons, and Nightvision.  Those seem like they would be ok but I'm looking for a good way to tell what's ok and what isn't.

As a further example, if shapeshifting into a Giant Snake, poison wouldn't work but would Entangle and Natural Weapons?

ninja edit: the German version (at least through translate) reads like you can't shapeshift into a poisonous creature.  That would mean the special attacks for wolf / bear / eagle would still be ok.

Second question - when the form is taken, does the animal have to be declared and then cannot be changed OR is it that the druid can shapeshift into any animal as long as it meets the size requirements?  The talents read slightly differently with Animal Form suggesting it's not a specific animal, Bear Form suggests that it is only one animal that has to be chosen when the talent is taken, and Eagle Form suggesting that it can be any flying creature Eagle or smaller.
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« Antwort #2 am: 02. Januar 2016, 16:27:41 »

Another one.  All the animal forms say that you can't cast spells while in animal form.  What about if you take the 2 ranks in Expertise so you don't need the verbal / somatic component?  You already keep the MND / AU / INT of the mage when switching.
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Antw:Druid questions
« Antwort #3 am: 03. Januar 2016, 04:56:33 »

Well, as it appears that we've migrated over here (kind of), I thought that I'd post a few questions.  I played 3.5 back when but finally get the chance to play in the 4.0 rules!
:thumbup:

Zitat
Regarding Druids, and the Beast's Strength talent, the English version has it as Druid 10 (V) but the description doesn't say "per rank."  I'm reading it as it *should* say that - thus giving a +10 to combat values if maxed.  The German version *does* appear to say "per rank" (Kraft der Bestie: Pro Talentrang) which would make sense.  Can anyone confirm?
Confirmed!

Zitat
Also, regarding the phrase "all combat values" I'm taking this to mean all the derived values as listed at the beginning of the book (HP, DEF, INIT, MOV, MAT, RAT, SPC, TSC) meaning that some of those values are going to get fairly high.  Can anyone confirm?
Jip, these are the correct values and they can (and should) get so high if someone puts so much talentpoints in it ;)

Zitat
Also, regarding the different forms, all say "all gear is included in the transformation and any magical bonus will continue to take effect."  Does this mean that any bonus to magical AV or magical weapon bonus will carryover?  It reads like it does.  For example, I'm carrying a +1 quarterstaff and wearing +2 robes.  When I change to wolf, my MAT and DEF changes to that of a wolf but I still get the magical +1 bonus to attack and magical +2 to DEF.  Can anyone confirm?
Yes, that's the plan.

Regarding Animal Form (versus Bear Form and Eagle Form), there is specific mention that "He does not gain any special attacks such as snake venom."  Does this extend to *all* special attacks and abilities?  A possible shapeshift example is that of a wolf.  The wolf has a special abilities Charge, Natural Weapons, and Nightvision.  Those seem like they would be ok but I'm looking for a good way to tell what's ok and what isn't.
All abilities gained by the natural body (strength from a bear) should be granted, but not special abilities the transformed body of the character couldn't produce too: His arms can grow like a bear's ones but his teeth can develope a poison, because they normaly cannot do it. Hope this helps.

Zitat
As a further example, if shapeshifting into a Giant Snake, poison wouldn't work but would Entangle and Natural Weapons?
Yes!

Zitat
ninja edit: the German version (at least through translate) reads like you can't shapeshift into a poisonous creature.  That would mean the special attacks for wolf / bear / eagle would still be ok.
But you can - don't thrust e-translators ;) And poisons don't work regardless of the animal.

Zitat
Second question - when the form is taken, does the animal have to be declared and then cannot be changed OR is it that the druid can shapeshift into any animal as long as it meets the size requirements?  The talents read slightly differently with Animal Form suggesting it's not a specific animal, Bear Form suggests that it is only one animal that has to be chosen when the talent is taken, and Eagle Form suggesting that it can be any flying creature Eagle or smaller.
You can always choose any other animal, it's not fixed while buying the talent.

Another one.  All the animal forms say that you can't cast spells while in animal form.  What about if you take the 2 ranks in Expertise so you don't need the verbal / somatic component?  You already keep the MND / AU / INT of the mage when switching.
Absolutely correct - with the talent you can.
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« Antwort #4 am: 03. Januar 2016, 12:18:52 »

Another one.  All the animal forms say that you can't cast spells while in animal form.  What about if you take the 2 ranks in Expertise so you don't need the verbal / somatic component?  You already keep the MND / AU / INT of the mage when switching.
Absolutely correct - with the talent you can.

Are both talents needed to be able to cast at all, or is one of them sufficient to be able to cast at -4?
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« Antwort #5 am: 03. Januar 2016, 15:14:45 »

Awesome.  Thanks CK!

Last one that we're wondering about and it's regarding HP while in animal form.  Let's say that my Druid, as a human, has 15 HP.  When he shifts to bear, he'll have 75 (Eagle = 7, Wolf = 29).  The way I read this is that if you are reduced to 10 HP as a bear, and you shift back, you still have 10 HP as the human.

But what happens when you, as the human, have been injured?  To continue the example, the human has been injured and is at 10 HP and shifts to a bear.  Does he now have 75 HP or is he starting at 10?  Or, he shifts to eagle which only has 7 HP and is uninjured.

I'm inclined to say that you have whatever HP you have when you shift.  I suppose a formula could be worked out so that you are at the same percentage of HP but that's more complicated.  Thoughts?

Oh, wait, one more.  Since, if you invest in Expertise 2, and the MND / AUR / RE of the animal uses that of the mage, does that mean that the animal uses the SPC / TSC of the mage or the animal (which is typically at 0)?  And, because the group is bound to ask, does Beast's Strength then add to those values?  As I read it, the animal will keep the SPC / TSC of the caster but Beast's Strength won't add to those as animals, typically, don't cast (and that would be giving a free bonus to SPC / TSC).
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« Antwort #6 am: 03. Januar 2016, 20:40:49 »

Last one that we're wondering about and it's regarding HP while in animal form.  Let's say that my Druid, as a human, has 15 HP.  When he shifts to bear, he'll have 75 (Eagle = 7, Wolf = 29).  The way I read this is that if you are reduced to 10 HP as a bear, and you shift back, you still have 10 HP as the human.

I always understood it differently, because the German text says something along the lines of "Damage taken is completely carried over upon shifting back". A Bear has 75 HP, is reduced to 10, so has lost 65. If the druid changed back to human form, he would also loose 65 HP. Starting from 15 HP, he would end up very, very dead.
Which means, he should better stay in bear form and get some healing from a druid buddy or go hibernating...

I would also handle the other way round like this: If the druid has lost 10 HP, he would start in bear form at 65 HP.

But maybe your reading is right, would be great if CK could clear this up.
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« Antwort #7 am: 03. Januar 2016, 21:03:10 »

That's the way one of our group thought about it too.

I would also handle the other way round like this: If the druid has lost 10 HP, he would start in bear form at 65 HP.

In that way, if we continue our example, a mage that's taken 10 HP in damage then shifts to Eagle, he dies immediately because the Eagle only has 7 HP - which is strange too.  Then, what happens when you throw something like the Invigorate spell in (I'd rule it as extra HP no matter what form you are in)?  I just don't see the point in dying because you've shifted form but I'm not sure that it's ok to fully heal when you switch form either.  Proportional health might be the best way to go (i.e. the mage has lost 50% of his HP so he shifts to animal form at 50% HP).

In any case, the point may be moot.  Druid is a sub-class of healer and SHOULD be able to heal himself to full at any point outside of combat.  But it WILL come up in our group.
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« Antwort #8 am: 03. Januar 2016, 22:34:39 »

True, in that case he shouldn't switch to eagle form, but I'd say that's not a problem - after all, a Blood Mage low on HP probably shouldn't use most of his special abilities too. And a Wizard drenched in oil probably shouldn't use a fireball spell... Being able to do something doesn't make it a good idea all the time ;)

But I think it's probably best to wait what CK has to say to this.

OTOH, what you say is true - most druids in "normal form" could just heal themselves up before changing, anyway...
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« Antwort #9 am: 03. Januar 2016, 23:54:13 »

OK - one more in relation to special abilities while in animal form.  Specifically, Wolf has Night vision.  Is that an OK special ability to have if the character is human?  I'd lean towards yes (it doesn't radically alter things like flaming breath or poison teeth) but it'd be good to know.
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« Antwort #10 am: 04. Januar 2016, 13:50:24 »

Yes, this works - it'S the wolf's natural ability. Like the sonar of a bat.
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« Antwort #11 am: 04. Januar 2016, 23:25:00 »

Awesome.  Was Chrysophiles correct in his understanding of how HP works?  The more thought that I put into it, I think that's the better way to go.

I've actually gone a few hours without questions so I may have hit the end until game starts.

@Chrysophiles, were it my game, I'd rule that both are required to be able to cast as the verbal component is more than just growls / screeches / squeaks / hisses, and the somatic component - the mystical gestures - can't be completed by an animal.
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« Antwort #12 am: 05. Januar 2016, 11:17:40 »

RE: magic talents:

I'd rule the same.
My question stems from the wording in the shifter talents, which I always read as "may not cast AT ALL". A bound and gagged mage on the other hand still can cast at -8. It's mainly a question if a druid in wolf form can't cast due to the lack of speech/hands (which would be inconsistent to the mage in the example) or because he's, well, a wolf (which leads us to the question whether one or both of the talents are needed and also why they work differently from the standard in that case).

Not that the latter is a problem per se, it's just that it's not intuitive to use the talents like that from the way they are written.

(Also, fyi, Bruder Grimm put out a German Fanwerk in this year's advent calendar called Talentpaket, which contains a new talent that allows a druid to cast once per fight per rank at -8. His interpretation seems to have been the same as mine.)
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« Antwort #13 am: 05. Januar 2016, 23:37:11 »

Thought of another one.

Do talents like Brutal Blow or those talents that don't specify a weapon transfer to the animal?  Maybe something like Alertness?  Basically, what talents transfer to the shapeshifted druid?

I might have to work up a list.  I'm also afraid that I'm about to become a thorn in the side of the GM (...unintentionally, of course).

@Chrysophiles, the "can't cast at all" thing had me thinking like you did.  Someone else in our group wondered the same thing about Expertise at the same time I did, which is why I asked.  I think it can work since you're really keeping the "mind" of the druid while in the form of an animal (thus you keep the MND / INT / AUR).  I think that this may open some interesting possibilities though - can you speak the animal's language?  Do you know how the animal acts or reacts?  With all the heightened senses, will you know what a rabbit smells like versus a goblin?

Also, IIRC, it's 1/2 value when you are missing one component and 1/4 value when you are missing both - page 45 in my book... unless this has been altered and I don't about it (quite possible!).
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« Antwort #14 am: 06. Januar 2016, 10:00:46 »

Also, IIRC, it's 1/2 value when you are missing one component and 1/4 value when you are missing both - page 45 in my book... unless this has been altered and I don't about it (quite possible!).

No, I think you're right. Damn... although I hope my questions/remarks are still understandable :-\ I should have written "at 1/2" instead of -4 and "at 1/4" instead of -8...
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Antw:Druid questions
« Antwort #15 am: 07. Januar 2016, 00:05:48 »

Not so fast - it's hard to answere questions which are"hidden" in multiple posts which got answeres  :o

I see, the problem with the shapeshiftingrule is that it only tells what happens with HP when you become human again.

For human to animal there is only one way to keep it fair: Two ways

1. If animal has lower HP than humanform (eagle) the HP stay the same - a wounded druid (2 HP) will have 2 HP when shapeshifting to eagleform (but the eagle will never have more HP than his eagleprofil allows ;) )
2. If animal has more HP than humanform (bear) the damage is substracted from the animals-HP too. So a druid who lost 20 HP will become a bear who lost 20 HP.

All other possibilities won't be fair for the lower- or the bigger-HP animals.



@Using magic while animal:
I still say possible - I would have told you the same 6 years ago (and would have put a hint in the rules)


@Talents: Hard quaestions with much to check. Basically I would say every talent, which doesn't need "compounds" (weapons, speech, charm, fingers) the animal doesn't have.
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« Antwort #16 am: 07. Januar 2016, 09:52:34 »

Not so fast - it's hard to answere questions which are"hidden" in multiple posts which got answeres  :o

Sorry ::)

For human to animal there is only one way to keep it fair: Two ways

First I was gonna argue, but the more I thin about it, it seems reasonable - like druid form is the base (druid can't die by using his powers to shift, but damage in animal form can put too great a strain on the druid's body).

@Using magic while animal:
I still say possible - I would have told you the same 6 years ago (and would have put a hint in the rules)

The question is not whether it's possible or not (don't worry, I believe you ;) ), but rather if both expertise talents are needed or just one of them. I'd say both...

Thank you for your answers!
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« Antwort #17 am: 07. Januar 2016, 17:44:13 »

Awesome.  Thanks so much!

Game actually starts tomorrow night - no doubt there will be more stuff posted.
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« Antwort #18 am: 08. Januar 2016, 00:55:04 »

Both are needed!
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« Antwort #19 am: 08. Januar 2016, 14:29:31 »

Great, thanks! :thumbup:
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