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[vikleroy]

How do you manage with a  player with a high level of perception?

I have an elf (+3) with a cloak of the watcher (+6), Alertness I (+2), ESP 8, IN 4. For standard Perception, this player always find what it has to be found, and it's difficult to put him in hard situations. Even if I put a MS -8, he can find a trap (Thievery I too), a secret door, or else. For Perception against Sneaking for exemple, it's easier, we can compare the results.

But for finding traps, etc, do I have to put a level to go through? For exemple, make a 10 or more to find? Even with a CTN of 25, making a 10 is more difficult to roll a D20 to do a 17 or less.

(burning the cloak is not an idea for me because the facts can be retrieved with higher levels)

[Dextolen]

I eagerly await comments too...

[cyrion]

Hello

In a Cthulhu RPG Round I have the same problem. A player with 90% in 'Spot Hidden'.

I let him found everything.

So let your player smell the sweaty feet of the halfling cook.
let him see the dirt in the nose of his lover
let him find the sh** in the corner
let him stumble in every disgusting thing a player can find in every dungeon your world have.

He is the one to notice everything so he shall do it...
Let him become scary of finding things
(My player nowadays isn' t the one to search the rooms. He knows that I let him sometimes find something special and the most of the time it is not funny for the PC.)

and for a trap
I would let him find the trap very easy but then it is very very very hard to disarm.
And it ist the only way to go.

[Bruder Grimm]

Hello

In a Cthulhu RPG Round I have the same problem. A player with 90% in 'Spot Hidden'.

I let him found everything.

So let your player smell the sweaty feet of the halfling cook.
let him see the dirt in the nose of his lover
let him find the sh** in the corner
let him stumble in every disgusting thing a player can find in every dungeon your world have.

He is the one to notice everything so he shall do it...
Let him become scary of finding things
(My player nowadays isn' t the one to search the rooms. He knows that I let him sometimes find something special and the most of the time it is not funny for the PC.)

That is certainly an approach in a Cthulhu RPG, but in Dungeonslayers I'd be afraid that this might - let's say - disturb the flow a little.

and for a trap
I would let him find the trap very easy but then it is very very very hard to disarm.
And it ist the only way to go.

Exactly! Just because he finds the trap doesn't mean the group already has passed it. That's certainly a way: to make more complex traps, puzzle traps, so to speak, which still impose a challenge even if you know where it is.

This way you can also present traps which are totally obvious, like (simple example) a hallway full of swinging, sharp-edged pendulums, which must be deactivated somehow or circumvented with dexterity.

But not all traps are that complex and built to catch a master trapfinder. Simpler traps may still exist, but you needn't take them into account as a challenge anymore. Just as "background decoration", to be only casually mentioned. Like, sure there was a trap, but it doesn't bother you.
"As you walk down the hall you hint your party at a spear trap to your right. Carefully stepping across its trigger plate you all pass it unharmed." And on to the real challenges.

[MH+]

Perception-Roll Sickness.

Partially answered there.

One of my main theories is that the perception skill is used in a very unimaginative way by most GMs.

Not because they can't do otherwise, but just because it's easier. And bad storytellers love lazy. 

I never delved too much into rpg-theory (since it's the same thing as narratology, only more simplified), but the attitude and thought process of designing a Perception skill has to be reworked in most games I've played, including DS4. Just some weeks ago I found myself playing the Dragon Age RPG, and again the first skill check demanded by the GM was (of course) a Perception check. It is rather annoying, and this phenomenon seems to stay persistent over decades. For me, it's really an indicator for poor rules design.

Speaking of rules design: It is hard to argue a system is not supposed to lay its emphasis on dungeoncrawls when a skill such as Perception is specifically triggered/required by most traps encountered in dungeons. You could argue that a game that puts its emphasis on character interaction (in terms of dialogue) would rather use skills such as empathy, psychology (etc) to perceive specific features in the other character. Such skills are almost never required in most fantasy pnp rpgs, which makes them much more twodimensional than most people would admit. In a fantasy boardgame such as Descent 2 a perception skill (among only 4 'attributes' in total) is totally fine. The game narrows itself down to skirmish-combat/dungeoncrawling and never claims to offer mechanics for free character/role play. Its just mechanic A (perception) to counter/battle mechanic B (trap cards). In a pnp rpg, however, such a restriction is seriously the worst thing one could support.

Ironically enough, most people advertise pnp rpgs as "games only restricted by your imagination". Yeah, right. Perception concepts in most pnp rpg games prove how limited that imagination must be, and in fact, even if some games suggests to use perception in (a slightly) different fashion (see: Dragon Age RPG), poor GMs will always fall back to bad habits and ignore the advice.     

Concluding this boring monologue, I would suggest an alternate perception concept for DS5. Two to three questions/angles need to be considered: The "when", "what" and "why". By When I mean that the Perception skill should never be rolled as a reaction, but rather offered by players when they want to perceive/investigate something they assume to be there. This has to be linked to a specific and clear utterance by the player, such as: "I pick up the letter and try to smell if there is any perfume attached to it, and if so, whether it can be linked to a male or female person." By What I mean the specific stats/description that is used for a roll. I can totally see Perception being a skill, don't understand me wrong, but this skill should only be used to open basic advantages (such as suggested by Taschenschieber in the link above), however, never to reveal hidden locations/information or the like. These things would require a specific (hearing, seeing, smelling etc.) pro-active check by a character, who actively wants to use his senses, rather than being forced to do so by his surroundings. I think the Dragon Age RPG does that well by allowing a Focus on the perception skill, which not only gives you a bonus, but could be a first step to a much healthier use of the skill in general. By Why I imply the question: Why do I roll the dice? I see two general scenarios, why a character would need to roll a perception (general /or/ focus XY) check. The first one is the example mentioned above: The character wants to use a small advantage (general perception) in advance, or reveal hidden information (focused senses) for an even greater advantage. The second one would be, if a hazardous surrounding (such as gas/smoke/light) forces the perception check to determine how much damage/disadvantage is applied to a character. An example would be, that a character, that has obviously caught a cold and/or generally bad smelling senses, would not be affected as much by foul gases than a character, that has a chef-background and who is superb at smelling and tasting things.

It's an interesting topic in general, I think one of the more underestimated ones in rules design and hopefully we get some rulebooks in the future, where Perception is used more properly, more balanced on the quantitative side of course, and where it is fun to use perception, rather than a nuisance (for both players and GMs alike).

Share your thoughts with me, if you agree or disagree, I'm greatful for different views/perspectives on this matter.

Kind regards,
MH+

[vikleroy]

If you have a player good in Perception, he will always want to do a Perception check in front of each door, investigate each wall to find if there is a secret wall, or something like that.

Btw, you have the spell "Eyes and Ear" (or something like that) which can "spoil" the surprise of a room. But as a GM, sometimes you want the players having a big surprise, and this scouting spell (like Perception), burns the surprise.

Especially on my table, the "when" perception is checked. It's not a reaction, but done for prevent something (see or hear in most of the situations). the "what" refears as I told before. How to prevent the player to check each brick of each wall in each room?

In any case, you have the initial situation of a player with a good Perception, having success in most of the time.

[Dextolen]

I've always felt that Secret doors were all meant to be found. That is not a problem. I simply won't design high level dungeons where a secret door bypasses a great encounter I've built.

Traps - Traps in DS either outright kill an SC or they get hurt and immediately healed, so there's no big deal here either. A good trap should damage and then unleash a hidden enemy, split the party or otherwise confound progress in order to be effective in DS.  So it's a bummer to have to put MV -8 on everything now that a player has put every last drop of PP and TP into perception/thievery  but that is just life.

[vikleroy]

Yeah, traps which make damages make players joking because the healer can immediatly heal party. So it's not very dangerous. More dangerous though is when you fall in a pit, suffer damages and there are monsters in the pit. Less joking.

Secret door must be found I agree. I don't want to make a part of a dungeon to explore to have players avoinding it. Work to ashes. No.

[Chrysophiles]

MH+ is onto something, I guess.
The problem may not be the perception skill per se, or a character having a high value for perseption, but rather the way the skill is handled in a game.

E.g. Player stands in the middle of a room (containing a tapestry with something hidden behind it) and states: I look around/I roll perception. *roll successful* -> GM says: Ok, when you look behind the tapestry...

Problem here: The Player didn't even say he was looking behind the tapestry, so the skill effectively replaced description, which I consider to be one of the fundamentals of role playing in general (your opinion may of course differ)

Or, e.g. the GM wants players to find something and asks for perception checks without indication from the players that they were searching. Again, skill check overrides description.

Personally, I would rather make a distionction as to when to use a skill check or not in the following way (as per the example with the tapestry above):

• Player just looks around the room: no way of finding anything, with or without a roll. Staying to long may bring wandering monsters or other unpleasentness.
• Player specifically looks behind the tapestry: no roll necessary, he finds the hidden cache or whatever. Opening it is another question... and again, as he didn't search in a hurry, time may bring wandering monsters...
• Player looks behind the tapestry, but wants to do it quickly, because he is afraid of being caught by enemies: skill check time! There is something to be found, but he does it quickly, so he may fail.

Basically, if enough time is at hand, I don't think checks are necessary. If you look for something with enough time, you will find it. But GMs have to offer a tradeoff: time has its own tax in the form of monsters or not getting to the ritual in time to stop it or whatnot... And if you don't take the time, you may fail a check.
But, nevertheless, a player has to specify where he is looking in order to find anything at all (I think that's also in the rules for perception checks, maybe formulated a little differently).

Just my 2 cents... I am also aware that the presence of a healer migitates time risk somewhat - that's why you should always kill off healers first Just kidding...

[CK]

Players joking?
Just give them a REAL trap - a trap build to kill the target instead of simply scratching some hitpoints.

Sorry, but I never understood why someone should invent a trap which only makes some minor damage that can be healed with a potion or herb - "nice" for some resource-managing-procedure *snoring*, but absolutely unrealistic and boring if there is more than one of them *snoring again*.

So give them a (nearly) no-chance trap - stops the joking, stops the feeling of being immortal and stops senseless trap that no one would construct.

[MH+]

I agree.

Doesn't solve the Perception-diarrhea, tho.

[amel]

I've always felt that Secret doors were all meant to be found. That is not a problem. I simply won't design high level dungeons where a secret door bypasses a great encounter I've built.

I agree. Secret doors and traps are meant to be found, because only when they are found they add fun to the game. A trap that is not found usually is not much fun. Just: *zap* you're dead. Make your trap interesting to disarm or interact with. Throw away your copy of Grimtooth's Traps which was a bad idea in the first place.

I think that is the case anywhere in every game. Only if you percieve things they add fun. Overlooked stuff cannot add fun as nobody can interact with it. I congratulate you that you have someone with a high perception in your game because you never have to think about :"How do I make sure that the PCs find this or that?"

So basically, I would do the following:
. Only ask for a perception roll when the SC is actively looking in the right place or if you want him to find something.
. Give vague answers that leave room for interpretation: Something is "strange" about the box he found. Or: "You hear whispering but cannot make out any words."
. Just make him find everything but make sure it is interesting to interact with. That is your job as GM anyways.

Andreas

[MH+]

• Player just looks around the room: no way of finding anything, with or without a roll. Staying to long may bring wandering monsters or other unpleasentness.
• Player specifically looks behind the tapestry: no roll necessary, he finds the hidden cache or whatever. Opening it is another question... and again, as he didn't search in a hurry, time may bring wandering monsters...
• Player looks behind the tapestry, but wants to do it quickly, because he is afraid of being caught by enemies: skill check time! There is something to be found, but he does it quickly, so he may fail.

I really want to stress out once more that there is no need of rolling, if no danger at all is implied.

Thus, I agree with Chrys' list.

[vikleroy]

Players joking?
Just give them a REAL trap - a trap build to kill the target instead of simply scratching some hitpoints.

Sorry, but I never understood why someone should invent a trap which only makes some minor damage that can be healed with a potion or herb - "nice" for some resource-managing-procedure *snoring*, but absolutely unrealistic and boring if there is more than one of them *snoring again*.

So give them a (nearly) no-chance trap - stops the joking, stops the feeling of being immortal and stops senseless trap that no one would construct.

I agree, but it's in your rules to have clerics that have infinite spells to heal, instead of AD&D when you only have limited spells learnt for the day (or if you are using mana rules). But I'm not very open to use deaths traps without any clues to disarm them.

I will retain Chrysophiles and amel rules.

[CK]

I agree, but it's in your rules to have clerics that have infinite spells to heal, instead of AD&D when you only have limited spells learnt for the day (or if you are using mana rules).

Yes, that's the difference (plus the fact, that a level-10-ds-pc doesn't have around ten times the hp he had at level 1, the latter making hp-scratching more interesting).

But I'm not very open to use deaths traps without any clues to disarm them.

Me2, absolutely agree. So my deadly traps are not concealed and the warnings very clear. But death is not the only option for a trap -  I like to use them to split the party or block a passage too. But I got the point

I don't use these "Oh, you open the chest and are hit by a blade for d4 points of damage which is poisoned with a d10 poison", because such traps always bored me (as a player, but mostly when being the GM).
So bookkeeping and DoR (Damage over Rooms )  wasn't what I tried to reanimate and spells like Healing Hands are killers for such "another d6 scratchers".

But this is personal style - after the second of such minidamage traps I get bored, but I know others prefer such things.